tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post6558992401888005049..comments2023-10-24T01:06:54.102-07:00Comments on I'm skeerdy: Tolerance is a Myth.Anon, A Mousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02783872862621609977noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-53845774646917831422008-08-27T09:07:00.000-07:002008-08-27T09:07:00.000-07:00"I don't find your questions difficult to..."I don't find your questions difficult to answer because I believe there is a very, very clear line between objectification and sexuality. I can't see how this line can possibly be so blurry to some.<BR/><BR/>Objectification shows a lack of respect while sexy does not (to men as well, because it treats you like you are all big throbbing penis's and nothing else)."<BR/><BR/>Well, right there, that's a big part of it. What constitutes a "lack of respect"? And why does a lack of respect for a two-dimensional construct on paper somehow equal a lack of respect for all womanhood?<BR/><BR/>Suppose, for example, I'm reading JLA, and the artist has drawn Wonder Woman turned so that the reader sees her butt, and it's drawn very nicely. I might say to myself, "hey, that's one nice butt".<BR/><BR/>Now, for that one moment, I'm not thinking about Wonder Woman's bravery or battle skills or whether she'll smack the crap out of Luthor or whatever, I'm thinking about her butt. Is that a lack of respect for Wonder Woman, or for women in general? I don't really think so. I'm hardwired to like the looks of women's butts, among other things, and while it WOULD be rude and disrespectful to openly shout "hey baby NICE ASS" to people on the street, I don't see how enjoying fantasy images on paper would also equate to the same sort of disrespect. The line may be clear (I'd debate that point), but what isn't agreed on is just exactly WHERE the line is drawn.<BR/><BR/>"So, no one would really lose out unless they would prefer to view women as sexualised objects rather than sexy women."<BR/><BR/>And there's another place the discussion hinges: The implication being that anyone who DOES want to read that kind of thing is a bad, bad person, and all good upstanding citizens wouldn't mind having their comics sanitized a bit.<BR/><BR/>This goes from making the argument about economics (what sells, what's in demand) to morals (if you want this, you're in the wrong). It is, as I implied earlier, showing a lack of respect for the likes and wishes of those who do read and enjoy this sort of thing. Granted, it's an effort to somehow increase respect for women, but doing so at the expense of respect for those you disagree with (bringing this back around to the "tolerance" subject of my original post).<BR/><BR/>"I think the more relevant question is why sexual objectification is appropriate in the JLA (for example). I can see the arguement for Lady Death, Withcblade, yaoi and other such things, but I can't see it for a title that everyone is meant to be able to enjoy."<BR/><BR/>It could be argued that despite the lip-service paid to superhero comics being made for a general audience, really, they're mostly made by and for men, and truly wide-audience-aimed superhero comics are the exception, not the rule.<BR/><BR/>There is, after all, no sticker or logo on Lady Death or Witchblade that says "hey, this is kinda a guys-only book, so watch out", and even yaoi doesn't say on the cover "ladies only! no real guys allowed".<BR/><BR/>JLA features iconic characters, true, but does that mean DC has some sort of moral obligation to make its comics completely gender-friendly? Especially if it thinks a bit of T&A helps sell the book?Anon, A Mousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02783872862621609977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-51008077942526175692008-08-27T01:29:00.000-07:002008-08-27T01:29:00.000-07:00Anonymous Empowered fan here again!I think I can s...Anonymous Empowered fan here again!<BR/><BR/>I think I can see where we differ now - I don't find your questions difficult to answer because I believe there is a very, very clear line between objectification and sexuality. I can't see how this line can possibly be so blurry to some. Objectification shows a lack of respect while sexy does not (to men as well, because it treats you like you are all big throbbing penis's and nothing else). So, no one would really lose out unless they would prefer to view women as sexualised objects rather than sexy women.<BR/><BR/>I think the more relevant question is why sexual objectification is appropriate in the JLA (for example). I can see the arguement for Lady Death, Withcblade, yaoi and other such things, but I can't see it for a title that everyone is meant to be able to enjoy. <BR/><BR/>Hey, if you are ever in Manchester, UK, drop into Travelling Man comic store and we can go through some titles together. :DAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-18066934287831567582008-08-27T01:28:00.000-07:002008-08-27T01:28:00.000-07:00Anonymous Empowered fan here again!I think I can s...Anonymous Empowered fan here again!<BR/><BR/>I think I can see where we differ now - I don't find your questions difficult to answer because I believe there is a very, very clear line between objectification and sexuality. I can't see how this line can possibly be so blurry to some. Objectification shows a lack of respect while sexy does not (to men as well, because it treats you like you are all big throbbing penis's and nothing else). So, no one would really lose out unless they would prefer to view women as sexualised objects rather than sexy women.<BR/><BR/>I think the more relevant question is why sexual objectification is appropriate in the JLA (for example). I can see the arguement for Lady Death, Withcblade, yaoi and other such things, but I can't see it for a title that everyone is meant to be able to enjoy. <BR/><BR/>Hey, if you are ever in Manchester, UK, drop into Travelling Man comic store and we can go through some titles together. :DAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-28351519082989207812008-08-25T09:15:00.000-07:002008-08-25T09:15:00.000-07:00"I just can't work out what readers or comic book ..."I just can't work out what readers or comic book companies would be missing out on! It's just simply a matter of respect."<BR/><BR/>Ah! But respect to whom, and how much, and in which direction?<BR/><BR/>Consider first that you've just said (pretty much) that too much sexuality in comics is a lack of respect to you. This by itself opens up a whole can of worms: how much is too much, and who gets to decide where the line is drawn? Also, if the artists and publishers aren't respecting you, is this a sign of overt antipathy toward you, or simply the fact that they like producing this kind of material, and whether or not you like it also is incidental? (i.e., is it deliberate or not?)<BR/><BR/>Mull that over a bit, and then let me pose a few more your way: How much (if any) responsibility does a publisher or artist have to cater to (or respect) the wants of every single member of its audience, especially if different members want different things? And what if one viewpoint has a majority over the others? Consider that some publishers (like those that make yaoi) target specific audiences and aren't necessarily trying to please everybody...<BR/><BR/>And then after THAT, think about the possibility that actively trying to get the amount of sexuality reduced in mainstream comics MIGHT be interpreted as a lack of respect for the wishes of those who do like it, who produce it and who want to read it.<BR/><BR/>This is not to say that you ought not to speak out for what you like (and what you don't), but if you frame the issue as a matter of respect, you should be aware that you risk making it a battle of personal offense where none is intended. And, remember that respect goes both ways, that sometimes increasing respect for one side of a debate means decreasing respect for the other.Anon, A Mousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02783872862621609977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-89360739034235217632008-08-25T06:08:00.000-07:002008-08-25T06:08:00.000-07:00What you are saying with the above quote, however,...<I>What you are saying with the above quote, however, is that the sexuality/objectification in mainstream comics is equivalent to porn. Keep porn separate? Isn't it already separate, for the most part?</I><BR/><BR/>I feel that objectification is related to porn. I don't feel it is fair to see a woman's (or mans!) body constantly objectified outside of the appropriate setting. I don't see what comics would loose by doing this - for the most part, I reckon they do it very well, but I find it hugely distracting to be reading a mainstream comic and be exposed to it. Stuff like Lady Death and Witchblade, well, that is what they are all about, right? So it is appropriate content to provide objectification in that case. It just really annoys me when it is in JLA!<BR/><BR/><I>Personally, I have been opposed to the shading out of male "bulges" in comics (such as has been done to Alex Ross' art), not because I am a fan of the package, but because 1) in general, I oppose that which censors or attempts to tame art in response to public outcry; and 2) I think it would be entirely fair if there were a comparable amount of male sexuality in comics that (some) women could appreciate.</I><BR/><BR/>Yeah, but there is nothing inherently sexual about a penis bulge. It is weird that there *is* any sort of outcry. If it was he focus of a over and being pushed into the viewers face, I would be against the objectification. I don't want to see male characters become more objectified (unless that is what the comic was ABOUT). <BR/><BR/><I>Plus, even if there were just as many women reading superhero comics as men, the two genders tend to react to sexuality differently. Would women find Citizen Steel's "package" all that erotic, or are they responding to different, less obvious cues? (If I recall, you yourself weren't impressed with the muscular Thugboy from Empowered...)</I><BR/><BR/>Lol - true! But just because I am female doesn't mean I can't become visually aroused. Thug-boy's overly muscled bouncy castle look just doesn't do it for me! Personally, I do believe women can react just as visually as men (but I am sure you don't really want to know what goes on in my mind, haha).<BR/><BR/><I>But back to the subject of tolerance and getting along despite our differences: faced with this difference of opinion, what can be done?</I><BR/><BR/>Well, I just think it is really simple to reach a middle ground. Don't draw people as if they are sexual objects and not characters in a mainstream comic book. There are plenty of other materials (plenty of other comic books) for that. It's sooo distracting in a book, and I have to admit, as a straight female reader it almost makes me feel like they don't even imagine I might be reading it. I just can't work out what readers or comic book companies would be missing out on! It's just simply a matter of respect.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-71047878235409719612008-08-24T09:55:00.000-07:002008-08-24T09:55:00.000-07:00"And I think that's the thing, why I don't like ma..."And I think that's the thing, why I don't like mainstream comics to constantly be objectifying the female characters...because can't we keep porn a separate thing?"<BR/><BR/>As I understand it, yaoi pretty much is porn, although there is a tamer variation of manga called "BL" or "Boy's Love" that follows many yaoi conventions but is far less explicit.<BR/><BR/>What you are saying with the above quote, however, is that the sexuality/objectification in mainstream comics is equivalent to porn. Keep porn separate? Isn't it already separate, for the most part?<BR/><BR/>It does illustrate the point of my little essay somewhat: if you see what goes on in mainstream comics as "porn", and I don't (among other things, I can't accept something that isn't particularly explicit as outright porn), that is a difference in perspective which, if we are to fully coexist and be "tolerant" of each other, needs to be resolved.<BR/><BR/>Personally, I have been opposed to the shading out of male "bulges" in comics (such as has been done to Alex Ross' art), not because I am a fan of the package, but because 1) in general, I oppose that which censors or attempts to tame art in response to public outcry; and 2) I think it would be entirely fair if there were a comparable amount of male sexuality in comics that (some) women could appreciate.<BR/><BR/>There have been some instances of female sexuality being toned down, such as the late Michael Turner's drawing of Power Girl and its "boob reduction", but I can see why male bulges get more attention from the publishers and swifter action: the publishers probably look at the fact that the majority of their readers are male, and thus are quicker to respond to complaints by what they see as their main source of income.<BR/><BR/>Plus, even if there were just as many women reading superhero comics as men, the two genders tend to react to sexuality differently. Would women find Citizen Steel's "package" all that erotic, or are they responding to different, less obvious cues? (If I recall, you yourself weren't impressed with the muscular Thugboy from Empowered...)<BR/><BR/>But back to the subject of tolerance and getting along despite our differences: faced with this difference of opinion, what can be done? You or I can hold fast to our own stances and claim that we are right and demand that the other person change their outlook; or, we each can try to persuade the other that our own perspective is better, and attempt to create a voluntary shift of opinion; we may even struggle to compromise, to reach a halfway-point that fully satisfies nobody but that both sides can live with; or, finally, we can agree to let each side want what they want and resolve to not let the other side's opinion/behavior bother us.<BR/><BR/>The last option is the most tolerant response, but also the most difficult to achieve.Anon, A Mousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02783872862621609977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-46514317769816189042008-08-24T08:22:00.000-07:002008-08-24T08:22:00.000-07:00Hi!I don't know if you remember, but I was the ano...Hi!<BR/><BR/>I don't know if you remember, but I was the anonymous on your post about Empowered.<BR/><BR/>I don't know much about burqa's or lolicon, but I think the thing about yaoi is that it is porn, right? And clearly labeled as porn (in my comic shop it is in cellophane wrapping). It's not really my thing, but I can easily not buy it or read it if I want to stay away from ridiculously sexualised images of men. Just like I don't have to buy a porn vid or mag or whatever if I don't want to see ridiculously degrading images of women. <BR/><BR/>And I think that's the thing, why I don't like mainstream comics to constantly be objectifying the female characters...because can't we keep porn a separate thing? I just want to see explosions and people kicking ass, really...sexy is good, but let's face it, sometimes that line is waaaaay crossed! <BR/><BR/>I would be just as weirded out if I all I ever saw were panels of Superman's arse or heavy focus on the bulge of his cock (it always seems to go the other way though and male characters have any representation of the fact they have a penis shaded right out! WTF is that about?).<BR/><BR/>Does that make sense?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-39782035741140237782008-08-23T01:03:00.000-07:002008-08-23T01:03:00.000-07:00"I wonder if finding a culture abhorrent makes me ..."I wonder if finding a culture abhorrent makes me less of a person? How close is that to racism?<BR/>Is it one and the same?"<BR/><BR/>Well, literally, no, they are not the same, race and culture are two different things. You're born into race, and unless you're Michael Jackson, you can't change that. (Jackson seems to be in the process of not only changing race, but species.)<BR/><BR/>You may be born into culture, but you can choose to change or leave your native culture, even if it leaves a lasting imprint on you when you leave.<BR/><BR/>Culture can also encompass many different aspects of a person's life, such as religion, or style, or even what's considered polite behavior. For example, there's a stereotype regarding Arabs that says that an Arab is far more likely to get physically close to someone they're talking to, close enough to invade what others consider their "personal space". I don't have any personal experience regarding this stereotype, but it works as an example of a fairly minor cultural difference.<BR/><BR/>Other differences can be far more dramatic. Recently in the USA there was an instance of the government moving in to remove children from a religious compound, where it was alleged they had been systematically abused. The group was supposedly an offshoot of Mormonism, some branches of which believe in polygamy.<BR/><BR/>That right there, with the double whammy of multiple wives and possible child abuse, leaves that group in the position of almost nobody being willing to "understand their differences".<BR/><BR/>This is why preaching tolerance has its problems: true universal tolerance would mean finding a way to coexist with even the most taboo of cultural differences, and that isn't likely to happen. The best you can aspire to is to be as tolerant as possible; the most reasonable measure of success is to compare how tolerant you are compared to others (and a certain amount of raw self-honesty is required for the measurement to have any real meaning).<BR/><BR/>Finding another culture intolerable is part of the human condition; your culture teaches you some things are right and others are wrong, and if some other culture teaches that what you think is right is wrong (or vice versa), there's bound to be conflict between the two when and where they meet.<BR/><BR/>If that trait isn't particularly admirable, it is at least understandable.<BR/><BR/>But, like I said, it does make the concept of truly respecting the differences of others far more difficult to achieve than some may think.Anon, A Mousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02783872862621609977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-78277258464791690722008-08-22T00:31:00.000-07:002008-08-22T00:31:00.000-07:00I wonder if finding a culture abhorrent makes me l...I wonder if finding a culture abhorrent makes me less of a person? How close is that to racism?<BR/>Is it one and the same?<BR/>I don't go around trying to make people of that culture stop or even try to convince people of this culture they are wrong in any way but...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-31709580555495461262008-08-21T15:11:00.000-07:002008-08-21T15:11:00.000-07:00When people talk about tolerance and understanding...<B>When people talk about tolerance and understanding, what they usually mean is they can be tolerant and understanding until someone pushes their own personal hot-button and then out come the long knives.<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>Truer words have yet to be spoken.<BR/><BR/>You know, your piece here reminds me of something the late, great George Carlin said in his last stand-up special early this year. He was talking about relgious types and said the following:<BR/><BR/>"They always ask '<I>what would Jesus do?</I>' And they ask this, NOT so they can do it themselves, but so they can <I>tell other people to do it!</I>"<BR/><BR/>I see a lot of similarities with what he said there and with this continuing crusade in mainstream comics by many "so-called" Feminists. <BR/><BR/>They preach that you need to be tolerant of their opinions and their feelings. Yet, it never seems to run the other way with them. This is why so many of them DO cry out "understand me!" and expect you to listen. Because their tolerance ends with someone who doesn't agree or heed what they say as some kind of "gospel truth."<BR/><BR/>I've seen you (and many others) say how those who act out like this are trying to be thought police. I've felt that wasn't quite right, since they know they have no way to actually control your thoughts. But having read this, I think I've finally figured out what they ARE trying to be: The Tolerance Police. They want to be the ones to decide what is and isn't tolerable for everyone. If they are outraged by it, all need to be. If they are okay with it, all need to be. <BR/><BR/>The rub, naturally, as you noted, is that everyone has a different yard stick on how much that can (or will) tolerate. <BR/><BR/>And, of course, matters of culture are basically irrelevent (unless it is of benefit to thier own view). I recently saw someone rip into artist Ed Benes, because he draws Wonder Woman's uniform bottoms like a thong. They called him the usual names for it. I asked them if they knew he is actually from Brazil, where, among other things, they invented the string bikini, and so seeing a woman in a thong is as normal to him, culturally speaking, as any of us in the US seeing a woman in a pants suit. So, his drawing her in one might not be because he wants to disrespect women, but simply an aspect of his cultural view of how women dress. Needless to say, they never responded back. Big surprise.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, this was a very impressive post. I'm sure it will be ignored or ridiculed by those who should heed ti the most, though, as that is how these things often go. Still, very nicely done.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-5990182855099077692008-08-21T14:33:00.000-07:002008-08-21T14:33:00.000-07:00"How many express outrage over lolicon manga, prod..."How many express outrage over lolicon manga, produced in Japan,"<BR/><BR/>I have a theory on that.<BR/>people are so scared of being seen as pervs they feel anything less then full outrage might make others wonder.<BR/><BR/>Also you do have to be watchful or you will get branded and that can be really dangerous to everything to you and your loved ones.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com