tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post2312307507185343037..comments2023-10-24T01:06:54.102-07:00Comments on I'm skeerdy: Tolerating the Intolerable, Defending the IndefensibleAnon, A Mousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02783872862621609977noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-73102716459266337852008-05-08T00:01:00.000-07:002008-05-08T00:01:00.000-07:00As someone who was sexually exploited by an older ...As someone who was sexually exploited by an older man in my teen years, I would like to kindly ask you to choke on a dick and die.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-70164739607930161672008-03-12T19:33:00.000-07:002008-03-12T19:33:00.000-07:00I think the feminists who are pressing for the eli...I think the feminists who are pressing for the elimination of sexy female imagery in comics are actually against normal male sexuality as expressed in comics.<BR/><BR/>Come on, most guys like to look at naked, half naked or three quarters naked women. It's well known that guys' sexual responses are visually oriented, to an extent that women's aren't. Comics are the only mainstream venue which appeals to normal guys' sexuality while ALSO including plot, characterization, that sort of thing.<BR/><BR/>There are erotic comics to be sure, and hardcore and softcore porn. But in most cases they dispense almost entirely with plot and characterization to get to the sex and nudity. My feeling is that feminists want to marginalize male sexuality by having it represtned ONLY in porn. They are willing to "give" men porn if men will give up on seeing imagery that they find strongly appealing in ANY mainstream medium.<BR/><BR/>That's why the focus on comics. It's the only mainstream venue left where male sexuality is appealed to, and which retain plot and characterization.<BR/><BR/>I think in its own way this is a sad as the guys who can't stand erotica or any porn that doesn't consist entirely of sex scenes. They're actually on the same side as the feminists, working towards a sharply bifurcated culture where sexual imagery that appeals to men is entirely the province of porn. <BR/><BR/>I don't think we should let them do it. It would be a mistake.Pat Powershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17546848088853626735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-81049438993603141322008-02-20T18:43:00.000-08:002008-02-20T18:43:00.000-08:00I just think the appropriate response when someone...<B>I just think the appropriate response when someone disregards your critique is to, at most, continue the critique, not work to silence the object of your critique by any means necessary...</B><BR/><BR/>Hey Anon:<BR/><BR/>I just thought I'd give you and everyone here a link to a piece at Mad Thinker Scott's place, which is dealing with this subject (albeit, from a slightly different direction). I think the similiarities between these two conversations woill make for some compelling thoughts. Just go here: http://scottthemadthinker.vox.com/library/post/derived-deride.htmlJames Meeleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15125466138669301618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-45070638878984249652008-02-19T23:25:00.000-08:002008-02-19T23:25:00.000-08:00Zhinxy:There is, I will confess, a wobbly line to ...Zhinxy:<BR/><BR/>There is, I will confess, a wobbly line to walk between critiquing something and discussing its merits, and what I consider a call for censorship.<BR/><BR/>One rule of thumb is, in my opinion, when you move from a position of criticizing some work, to attempting to restrict what others can have.<BR/><BR/>Greg Land, for instance: "Man, that guy makes me sick! What a porn-tracer! He should be out of comics. I hate his work!"<BR/><BR/>Well, fine. You have an opinion, there it is.<BR/><BR/>"Not only that, we should boycott the companies and stores that carry his work and give him jobs! Drive him out!"<BR/><BR/>And that's where I kinda get leery. Because if that actually happened, it would possibly affect the ability of other people who may have no problem at all with Greg Land or his work to buy comics with Greg Land's art in them. Not only are you then making a determination of what's good and what's not for yourself, you're in a process that attempts to do it for EVERYONE.<BR/><BR/>I get even more squeamish about it when the idea is that Item X in comics actually somehow causes bad stuff to happen in real life, like Wertham claiming that the violence in comics caused juvenile delinquency, or modern arguments about how sexist material in comics supposedly causes sexism in real life. Not only have I yet to be convinced that there's any real causal effect between fiction and real acts, but framing the argument in that kind of "we must save society/won't someone think of the CHILDREN??" rationale is pretty much how the opening quote puts it, a moral crusade where no compromise can be reached, where you're either "with us" or you're some sort of kitten-eating babyraper.<BR/><BR/>To be fair, going back to the post that touched all this off, I don't remember reading anything in Lilith Ester's original review of Chugworth Academy to suggest that she, personally, was seriously in favor of sending in the stormtroopers to kick in Dave Cheung's door and shut down his webcomic (though the hyperbole of that site's reviews makes it difficult to tell sometimes). She HOPED his webcomic would die and go away, and she obviously detests Dave Cheung on a visceral level, and while I think her ire is a bit misplaced, I don't really have a problem with the bulk of her review... EXCEPT for the part where she starts out "And I'm not against sex, BUT..."<BR/><BR/>It was the people responding to my post that brought up the whole "free speech" angle to all this, and this post is a response to that.<BR/><BR/>So to sum up: I have no problem with actual, thoughtful critique, though if I think a line of criticism is unfounded, I may counter it with my own criticism. More power to critique! You won't ever see me saying nobody should ever criticize anything.<BR/><BR/>I just think the appropriate response when someone disregards your critique is to, at most, continue the critique, not work to silence the object of your critique by any means necessary...Anon, A Mousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02783872862621609977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-18816325138882035732008-02-19T16:35:00.000-08:002008-02-19T16:35:00.000-08:00high five *Puts down gun and copy of Atlas Shrugge...<I>high five</I> <BR/><BR/>*Puts down gun and copy of Atlas Shrugged, slaps back*<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><I>Christ, that guy needs to be fired.</I><BR/><BR/>Indeed! So, anon, this is what I'm talking about. <BR/><BR/>Is my position of "let's not have superhero comics that are drawn by the guy who traces from porn - and doesn't even draw the same girl for the same character on a consistent basis - things I actually will call sexist, though you may disagree on whether it's sexist or simply lazy" inconsistent with my position that I don't necessarily mind, and in some cases even prefer a high level of sensuality in my comic book art? Am I feeding you bullshit? I really want to know! :)zhinxyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01119544025471120091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-86427180174158320862008-02-19T16:15:00.000-08:002008-02-19T16:15:00.000-08:00Greg Land is a whole different kind of animal. Wha...Greg Land is a whole different kind of animal. What he does isn't comic book art. I will concede that if you're just straight up tracing pictures from pornos, then you've made comics into porn.<BR/>Christ, that guy needs to be fired.JohnFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09339402431610031589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-82384950547215985032008-02-19T15:56:00.000-08:002008-02-19T15:56:00.000-08:00Gotcha, self-deprecating humor. High five!Gotcha, self-deprecating humor. High five!JohnFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09339402431610031589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-5619992236847781342008-02-19T15:53:00.000-08:002008-02-19T15:53:00.000-08:00I'm more libertarian than you! Well, most likely, ...I'm more libertarian than you! Well, most likely, and I actually was using it as a bit of self-deprecation ;)zhinxyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01119544025471120091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-63161100265694938042008-02-19T15:48:00.000-08:002008-02-19T15:48:00.000-08:00zhinxy-I don't think it's fair to describe liberta...zhinxy-<BR/>I don't think it's fair to describe libertarians as "wingnuts." I'm pretty libertarian myself, and I'm hardly a wingnut.JohnFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09339402431610031589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-13464219239467712292008-02-19T15:43:00.000-08:002008-02-19T15:43:00.000-08:00Ha, describing a mainstream comic as porn! Talk ab...<I>Ha, describing a mainstream comic as porn! Talk about your hyperbole.</I><BR/><BR/>In most cases I agree. Frank Cho's actually just a great cheesecake artist and calling him the porn guy is pretty out there. But then, there's Greg Land, who actually has been caught tracing porn and putting superhero outfits over it. So, yeah. Comics aren't porn. Unless they're Land comics. And it really is a sad comment on the state of the industry that he gets away with that. <BR/><BR/>:)zhinxyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01119544025471120091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-22826958183051584792008-02-19T15:23:00.000-08:002008-02-19T15:23:00.000-08:00Okay, anon, I'm curious. I completely agree with y...Okay, anon, I'm curious. I completely agree with you that all speech should be tolerated - and you know, run around hardcore libertarian wingnut circles as often as I do, you'd be surprised how often the people most invested in the idea of free speech are the most viciously critical of fictional works! So I hardly see those two positions as exactly inconsistent! <BR/><BR/>But before you have said to me that my position, that I do enjoy a high level of cheesecake in superhero comics myself, (And I do - The Dodsons, Adam Hughes, Ed Benes - these are a few of my favorite things) but that I sometimes feel that it's over-the-top, badly handled, and sometimes handled in a sexist way was reasonable. <BR/><BR/>So what am I, a reasonable person with criticisms of some works, or a vile creature on the road to censorship, demonizing those who like things I don't? ;)zhinxyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01119544025471120091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-34985093169389414102008-02-19T15:07:00.000-08:002008-02-19T15:07:00.000-08:00no i'm not him. I don't understand why he keeps th...no i'm not him. I don't understand why he keeps this up either. Are you really saying you think there's some point rationalizing with women?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-90819493852522711172008-02-19T15:02:00.000-08:002008-02-19T15:02:00.000-08:00Rational Mad Man, is that you?Rational Mad Man, is that you?JohnFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09339402431610031589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-88738611674235341122008-02-19T14:51:00.000-08:002008-02-19T14:51:00.000-08:00Well, think about it. Ever since women got power i...Well, think about it. Ever since women got power in our society mens natural urges have been demonized more and more. Anon i think you are a great smart guy but you keep trying to rationalize these things. There is no point in rationalizing with women, and you are fighting a fools game.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-35884877118781741662008-02-19T00:07:00.000-08:002008-02-19T00:07:00.000-08:00"There are plenty of good reasons for having age o..."There are plenty of good reasons for having age of consent laws that put the age at 18 or 21 or whatever. But that doesn't make thinking a 17 year old is sexy some kind of evil."<BR/><BR/>I really think that there's been an increase in the "taboo-ity" of the subject in the last decade or two, possibly due to an increasing awareness of child abuse (brought into focus by high-profile cases on TV) and the subsequent parental hammering at their kids about stranger danger, bad touching, and other perils. And awareness is good, up to a point, but I have to wonder how much lasting effect it would have on a kid growing up to tell them constantly that they always have to be scared and careful or someone's gonna snatch them up into a van and do unspeakable things.<BR/><BR/>My speculation is that a lot of kids who grew up in that field of ever-present anxiety are now more-or-less grown up and are carrying that with them, having it influence their outlook on all things, particularly anything vaguely erotic.<BR/><BR/>So nowadays the idea of sex with someone below the age of consent is on a par with live vivisection of kittens, deadly serious, always horrible... but it wasn't all that long ago that the subject was often used in JOKES, like a punchline from the movie Animal House or a routine on a Cheech & Chong record. There's bits of popular culture from years back that would cause utter firestorms of controversy if produced today. Heck, I was just thinking about "The Judas Contract" run in the Teen Titans book, and wondering how that's going to play out if they ever release the animated version they keep saying is coming...Anon, A Mousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02783872862621609977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-3295721314537420752008-02-18T13:43:00.000-08:002008-02-18T13:43:00.000-08:00Scott-The whole "ew factor" thing reminds me of so...Scott-<BR/>The whole "ew factor" thing reminds me of something my friend Mike (a gay man) said to me. I'm paraphrasing, obviously, but only a little.<BR/>He said:<BR/>"People are always saying that fags hate women. We don't hate women at all. We love women! We just think their vaginas are disgusting."<BR/><BR/>As far as homosexuality destroying the institution of marriage, please. Marriage doesn't need any help from teh gheyz. My friends Scott and Drew have been married for 27 years now. And every time they celebrate another anniversary I say to them "will you two please stop ruining the sanctity of marriage for the rest of us!?"JohnFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09339402431610031589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-37847103585613279432008-02-18T13:23:00.000-08:002008-02-18T13:23:00.000-08:00I love this post. I'm so glad you brought up the t...I love this post. I'm so glad you brought up the taboo topic because I was thinking the same thing. There are plenty of good reasons for having age of consent laws that put the age at 18 or 21 or whatever. But that doesn't make thinking a 17 year old is sexy some kind of evil. At least not to me. It's like thinking about driving over the speed limit. It might be a naughty fantasy for you, but you really aren't hurting anyone by fantasizing about it.<BR/><BR/>The second thing that I was ever so happy to see was the "ew factor" thing about gay sex. How I wish more people would admit that the thing that they have trouble with about gay sex is that they think it's gross instead of having to come of off the wall reasons for hating it like that it will destroy marriage or society as a whole. If you think it's gross, more power to you. Don't do it or buy homoerotic material, but for the love of Pete, stop pretending that it hurts your marriage or will destroy Western civilization.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, great post. Even if you do find me a bit disgusting. ; )Scott (The Mad Thinker) Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10782962281214635210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3253516949261298537.post-61167710631684263822008-02-18T00:35:00.000-08:002008-02-18T00:35:00.000-08:00Ha, describing a mainstream comic as porn! Talk ab...Ha, describing a mainstream comic as <B>porn</B>! Talk about your hyperbole.<BR/><BR/>It reminds me of this story from a couple of days ago.<BR/>http://time-blog.com/work_in_progress/2008/02/my_company_made_me_look_at_por.html<BR/><BR/><I>"So when I came in this morning, what do I find under my door but a beautifully laid out publication of porn."</I><BR/><BR/>Jeez, lady, really? You're actually calling the SI Swimsuit issue PORN??? The Swimsuit issue is about as sexy as the Hammacher Schlemmer catalog.<BR/>The standards at TIME are really slipping.JohnFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09339402431610031589noreply@blogger.com